How do you guide a research and data analytics institute through massive growth, a pandemic, and the rise of AI? In this episode, Michael Schull shares insights from 12 years as CEO of ICES, celebrating its achievements and outlining the opportunities he sees for ICES to advance health care and health research in Ontario.
How do you guide a research and data analytics institute through massive growth, a pandemic, and the rise of AI? In this episode, Michael Schull shares insights from 12 years as CEO of ICES, celebrating its achievements and outlining the opportunities he sees for ICES to advance health care and health research in Ontario.
Michael Schull, MSc, MD, FRCPC, is a nationally recognized leader with a track record of driving digital transformation, building national and international research and data partnerships, and organizational growth and sustainability. Prior to joining the Digital Research Alliance of Canada, he served for 12 years as CEO and Senior Scientist at ICES, Canada’s leading health services research and data analytics institute. He is a founding member of Health Data Research Network Canada (HDRN), a pan-Canadian network of health data and research centres seeking to facilitate and enable pan-Canadian research, and past co-director of the International Population Data Linkage network.
During his tenure at ICES, Michael led major initiatives related to expanding researcher access to new data types, creating a virtual data platform for linked datasets and launching a health AI data and analysis platform. He also engaged the public and communities in the work of ICES to ensure alignment with public values and strengthened relationships with Indigenous partners.
Michael is a Professor in the Department of Medicine at the University of Toronto and a Senior Scientist at the Sunnybrook Research Institute. His research areas include health service utilization, quality of care, health system integration and patient outcomes, and evaluation of health policy. His work has focused on strengthening Ontario and Canada’s health research infrastructure for the analysis of large, routinely collected data sets, and creation of new data access models for research and health system evaluation.
Fluent in both English and French, Michael was born in Montreal and raised in Québec before relocating to Ontario, where he earned a BA and M.D. from Queen’s University. He later completed an MSc in Epidemiology and Biostatistics from McGill University and a Harkness Fellowship with the Commonwealth Fund in the US. He is a Fellow of the Royal College of Physicians of Canada. He is currently based in Toronto.
More information about ICES and DRAC
ICES | About Us | Community of Research, Data & Clinical Experts
ICES | Applied Health Research Questions | AHRQ
ICES | Public and Community Engagement at ICES
ICES | Partnerships & Collaborations | Indigenous Partnerships, Data and Analytics
Digital Research Alliance of Canada
Jacob Hipel
Hey, Michael, remember one day leaving the office and just being kind of stuck, unable to cross the sidewalk, because there was like a small fleet of geese just walking across? I was just kind of standing around waiting there for a couple of minutes for them to go by, and then you kind of just popped up beside me, and you were, like, saying what I was thinking. You were like, "wow, they're just complete jerks, aren't they?" That really made me laugh. And I think a great thing about you is that if I didn't know you were the CEO, I would just think you were like, another employee, like you very much just feel like on equal terms with everybody, and you are the same with everybody, which I thought was really refreshing.
Misty Pratt
That is the voice of Jacob Hipel, a Systems Engineer, and one of the amazing people here at ICES. In that clip, Jacob's speaking to Dr. Michael Schull, a person who is very well known in our community, and today we get to introduce him to you. And if you're wondering, what is ICES, well, stick around, because we're going to tell you what makes us a data powerhouse in Ontario and beyond. Michael Schull has been CEO and Senior Scientist at ICES for the past 12 years, and at the time of this recording, we are speaking to Michael in the final weeks of his time here. In this interview, we reflect on Michael's journey, how ICES has advanced under his leadership, what he's learned about turning data into meaningful change, and what comes next for the organization. From building partnerships to navigating challenges, Michael shares personal insights on leadership, collaboration, and the enduring power of data to improve health for everyone. Along with Jacob's geese story, you'll also hear the voices of a few other guests who will pop in to share their memories of Michael as a final farewell. We hope you enjoy getting to know Michael as much as we have, and that you learn a bit more about the work we do here at ICES. Michael Schull, welcome to In Our VoICES.
Michael Schull
Thanks very much.
Misty Pratt
You've been at ICES for over 12 years, and you've said that it's been one of the highlights of your career to date. Tell us what made it a highlight?
Michael Schull
Wow, there's so many things, and I should point out that I was at ICES as a scientist before I became CEO, so I've really been here for, I guess, almost 25 years, or probably 23 or something like that, now. And look, this is the place where I grew up professionally, really. When I completed my training, both my medical training and my research training, I spent a year at McGill but then was recruited back to Toronto and joined Sunnybrook Hospital. And ICES has always had a relationship with Sunnybrook, because we rent space from them, and many of the scientists, myself included, were co appointed between Sunnybrook and ICES, and so within a couple of years, I joined ICES as well, as a researcher here, and this is where I grew up professionally. It's where I really learned how to work with population level health data. It's where I began to take advantage of some of the unique data resources that exist at ICES, and especially the unique expertise, the broad expertise across the organization, which includes clinicians from different specialty areas. It includes PhD researchers, statisticians and, you know, a whole array of expertise that I was able to take advantage of as I built out my research and began to engage also with policymakers and decision makers to help to disseminate my research and make sure that it was being applied to improve the system. So then leading on to becoming the CEO, of course. Why did I want to do that? I wanted to do that because, you know, it was just a great organization, and it would have I knew that it would be a fantastic opportunity to lead that organization and be part of the fantastic leadership team that exists here. And I could just see so much that was still to be done and still to be achieved, and I set out to achieve at least as much of that as we could over my time. And you know that's going to continue inexorably forward. I'm sure, under my successor.
Misty Pratt
You are a clinician, so you work in the emergency department, still. So, what at the beginning, what made you go research like, what was it about research that you thought was so important?
Michael Schull
I've had this advice, and I've given this advice, which is, you know, for people are sort of trying to figure out what they want to do with their lives. You know, it's a bit it's a bit trite, but I think it's still true. What are you passionate about? What do you really care about? And that is a good guide as to what you should spend your life, you know, doing in terms of your working hours, probably any, any of your hours, actually. But you know, when I was in the emergency department, way back then and still today, one of the big problems was just the overcrowding, long waiting times patients who were frustrated. Patients who we knew weren't getting the kind of quality care they needed, because timeliness is an important aspect of quality. And that problem existed then it still exists now. And what I realized at the time was that there wasn't really much research into you know, why is it like this? What can we do to improve it? What are the key factors that are, that are driving the problem? And I also knew that there was a lot of sort of mythology and things that were believed to be major causes of the problem, which, as a clinician, I knew were not important causes of the problem, things like, you know, patients with minor problems, oh, they're all clogging up the ERs and all. I mean, that's something that we've heard forever, but there wasn't really good research to demonstrate that whether it was or wasn't true. So that was one of the reasons why I decided, You know what, I'd like to do the kind of research that can solve the kind of problems that I see every day in my in my clinical life, and which I know matter to patients and to providers. So that was a big driver for me to begin to undertake research.
Misty Pratt
And I think the average Ontarian does not know much about ICES, and what we do, can you tell us a little bit about ICES and why Ontarians should care about our mission?
Michael Schull
Yeah, so ICES is a not for profit research institute. We're publicly funded. We have an independent board of directors. Our main source of funding comes from the Ontario Ministry of Health, and that's been true since we were founded way back in 1992 so we've been around for over 30 years, and we have a specific legislated authority under Ontario privacy legislation that allows us to collect the health data that's routinely gathered in the provision of medical care or health care in Ontario, we're able to collect that data from a whole variety of data custodians. That includes the Ministry of Health, that includes hospitals, includes primary care, prescriptions, lab tests, births, deaths, all that sort of thing. And so, we have a data repository that includes data on essentially the entire population of Ontario, and in some cases, those data sets go back to the early 90s. So, we have this incredible longitudinal view of health care across Ontario over time and across geography, and we use that data to do two things. One is to support research, and that is research that's conducted by ICES scientists. I'm one of those, but there are about over 300 individuals who are appointed to ICES as scientists. So, we support the research that those individuals lead, and we also have the ability to support research from scientists from anywhere in the country, they don't have to have an appointment with ICES to access our data and analytics resources. And then the second thing that we're able to do is to support the evaluation of the health system. So, kind of distinct from research, we can use the data to evaluate the health system, to evaluate health policy, to inform key stakeholders like the Ministry of Health or Ontario Health or hospitals or primary care groups or community groups, for that matter. How the health system is performing in relation to them or some of their policies or health programs. Or for community, what does our data say about the health of your community and how does that relate, perhaps, to the general population and so on? So, we have this amazing resource, which is the data. We have the authority to collect and use that data in the ways I described. And then the other thing that makes this place so special are the people. So, in addition to the scientists I mentioned, we have over 300 staff, many of whom work day in, day out, on the analytics, making the data research ready, and then making it available, and conducting the research and the analytics that are needed. And that expertise, again, has been built up over 30 years, and it creates these fantastic teams of multidisciplinary scientists, really skilled analysts and staff scientists working together to solve research problems and to advance and improve health policy and other policy in Ontario. The aim is to improve health care for Ontarians. So, it's not just about abstract health policy evaluation. It's also about saying these are ways in which the health system is organized and it's having the following outcomes for individual patients. So, what we do is to try to make the health care system work better, make health policy work better. And the whole reason for that is to make health outcomes for individual Ontarians better.
Misty Pratt
And so a person walking off the street who said, you know, "I want to know about this, about my data, or about data of all Ontarians on this topic," we couldn't necessarily give that to somebody because of privacy, like regulations and laws, but we do have the ability for community organizations to be able to ask those questions if needed.
Michael Schull
Exactly so that's what I was talking about, that ability to evaluate the health system and so on. So, we can do that on behalf of what we call a knowledge user. So that's like another group. Again, it could be a formal part of the health system, a hospital or the Ministry of Health itself, or it could be a community group that would come forward and say, "We want to know more about the health of people that are in our community that we care about. So can you answer the following question?" And that's a program called the Applied Health Research Question program. It's been around for probably at least 12 years or 15 years now, and it is fantastic because we're funded by the Ministry to undertake that work, which means that a community group coming forward with a question doesn't need to have like they don't need to pay us to do the analysis. We have funding to support those analysis, and we are doing more and more of these types of questions for community groups. That's one of the things that I'm particularly excited to see happen. That it's something that's really only started in the last couple of years. It's also, by the way, one of the things that we're doing increasingly with Indigenous communities, First Nation communities in particular, who have approached us with questions about the health in their communities. And I think it's a fantastic, really fantastic way to be using our expertise and our data resources.
Sujitha Ratnasingham
My name is Sujitha Ratnasingham. I started at ICES in 2008 as an Epidemiologist, and I'm now the Director of Strategic Partnerships. Back then, Michael was a scientist, and I first got to know him well when we worked together to strengthen relationships with First Nations, Metis and Inuit partners and to expand ICES data holdings into the social sector. Michael has had an incredible influence on how I approach building partnerships. He leads with transparency, empathy and collaboration. His vision for what ICES could be has truly shaped who we are today, a collaborative, innovative and committed research institute with an unwavering dedication to reconciliation and equity. On a personal note, I'll really miss Michael. I was very saddened to hear that he was leaving. He has a remarkable ability to make everyone feel seen and heard, regardless of your role. He encourages open dialog and values diverse perspectives, and through that he's helped me grow as a leader. I'll also miss our travel adventures, whether it was racing to catch flights from Ottawa in the middle of a snowstorm, or ice fishing on Manitoulin Island during our very first land based training. And finally, what I'll miss most about Michael is his sense of humor. He creates such a fun and positive environment, and he always sets the bar high. Thank you, Michael, for everything you've contributed to ICES and to all of us personally. You've left a lasting mark, and we wish you the very best in this next chapter.
Misty Pratt
So, take us back to the early days as CEO. What was the health research and data landscape like back then?
Michael Schull
A couple of things. I'd say maybe first kind of inside baseball thing. I mean, you know, when you think about how ICES was structured back then, ICES began as a an institution that had a few scientists that were associated with it, and only those scientists and the staff could access the data that we had, and that data existed within our analytic environment here in the in our building on the Sunnybrook campus. You had to come into the building to access it if you wanted to know, no notion of remote access back then, and it was only those individuals who could access the data. When I started as CEO that has started to change a little bit in the sense that we had already, at that point, developed a couple of what we called satellite sites. So, these are other physical sites at Queen's University and Ottawa and Western to enhance the access to our data resources, but you still had to be an ICES scientist to access those data. And the way in which that it was organized, with staff, it was all very bespoke. There are all sorts of different arrangements, different scientists had different arrangements with staff and so on. And to make a long story short, it wasn't the best organized or the smoothest, let's say, model possible. There are a lot of people who liked the way it existed at the time, because that's what they'd always known. But what we realized, and what I realized at the time was, you know, essentially, we are a provincial resource, graphic, national resource, in many ways, but we're certainly a provincial resource, and we needed to modernize the way in which we were working and our access models so that we could essentially democratize access to that data. So we spent a couple of years, doing that, reorganizing the way scientists work with staff, creating a virtual data access platform so you could be really anywhere with the appropriate approvals, and you could access our data and analytic resources and opening it up to any researcher, anywhere that you didn't have to have an ICES appointment to gain access to the data. You could get it if you are a researcher at, you know, at York University, or Waterloo, or any number of universities in the province, and, frankly, in the country, you could access our data and analytic resources. So that has been, I think, a very successful change for ICES, and one that that I'm particularly proud of, and we now have an entire team of staff that support those researchers from outside of ICES who are accessing our data and analytic resources. That was something that we were able to do, by the way, in partnership with CIHR through its strategy for patient oriented research or SPOR, the Ontario SPOR Support Unit has been a funder of that work for many years. Now, the other big difference, I would say, which is more kind of externally facing, is just the availability of data. So, when we started, there just was nowhere else to go, really, for the kinds of data that ICES houses. This was the place, and that has changed. And it's changed such that there are there are other places you can go to get data similar to ICES, there are other places that you can go to get much more detailed data from, let's say, hospital electronic health records and so on, for research and other purposes. And that's changed the landscape. It makes it a much more dynamic landscape. The opportunities for research are greater.
Misty Pratt
So, this data is available in other places. Now, what makes people want to come to ICES? Is it the partnerships? Is it the collaboration with these other places that hold this data, that we can link together and create something stronger?
Michael Schull
For one thing, ICES still holds a vast array of data, so over 120 data sets. So, some of these data sets may exist elsewhere, but not all of them generally exist elsewhere, and for some projects, you need the broad array of data that's available. The other thing that we have is just like really deep expertise of working with the data. Even if the data are available to you, you may not actually have the tools and the expertise that you need to really understand the data and make best use of them. So that's another reason we also make available analytic tools like high performance computing environments. So, for some machine learning or, you know, AI analyses that is available. So, there are a variety of reasons why, why researchers will come to ICES versus another area. But, you know, I think the aim is not, you know, it's not about to make as many places as possible where people can gain access to data. It's really about figuring out, how can we most efficiently collaborate together to broaden access to as many data resources as possible, but do so in a way that is where we're demonstrating responsible stewardship of the data, where we're ensuring the privacy is maintained, where we're ensuring that the data are kept secure and access is limited to those folks who have the permission to access it and do so in a way that maintains public trust and confidence. Because you know when we when we've undertaken public engagement activities over the years, and our Public Advisory Council and so on, there's no question that people want the data used to improve healthcare and improve outcomes, but they also want to ensure that privacy is maintained, that the data are kept secure, that they aren't, you know, unreasonably exploited. And so those are things that that ICES works very hard to ensure. And there's another reason why we are a, you know, I would say, a very favored data partner.
Misty Pratt
So, what was the one of the toughest challenges you faced during your leadership?
Michael Schull
Probably the most vivid one would be the pandemic, COVID. I mean, I can still remember, and we probably all do remember those early days in March of 2020, when we were hearing the news. And there were, it seemed to be every day there would be a Prime Minister was giving a news conference, and the pandemic was declared, and suddenly, you know, everyone was working from home, and that that transition, that very sudden transition, overnight, really, from people being in the office to everyone working from home, that was a major challenge. I will say that one of the things I'm very proud of is that we navigated that challenge really remarkably smoothly, a little bit by luck. I mean, it just so happened that in the in the months leading up to the pandemic, we had completed, you know, issuing all of our staff laptops so that they were able to work from home, you know, at times, because sometimes there wasn't an option that time you worked some of the time in the office, sometime at home and so on. But having completed that transition, having developed the virtual data access platform that I mentioned earlier that enabled us really to almost seamlessly go from pre COVID to COVID, and we really didn't miss a beat in terms of starting to work very closely with government and the health system organizations to ensure that our data resources were being used as effectively as possible to produce reports rapidly on the state of the pandemic. Initially it was on the state of infections and testing and so on, and then ultimately, later on, when vaccines became available, was on the rollout of vaccines and how that rollout was progressing. You might remember, early on in the vaccine rollout, there were a lot of questions around health equity. Who was getting vaccinated, and concerns that it wasn't the most at risk communities who were where the uptake was as rapid as some of the less at risk communities. And we were one of the organizations that was producing those reports that were demonstrating those challenges, and it led to changes in how the vaccine rollout took place, and very successful changes where we were then able to demonstrate that, in fact, equity was improving and that it was the higher risk communities were catching up in terms of vaccine uptake that was a huge challenge for everyone. The work was one thing, also working differently, not seeing your colleagues suddenly, you know, being at home all the time, dealing with some of the challenges for staff, right? I mean, like every organization, it wasn't easy for everyone. Staff had to deal with families, kids, sometimes being alone and working from home for weeks on end was definitely not easy. So, you know, we tried to deal with that as best we could in terms of engaging the staff, staying in touch with our staff, helping those staff that needed a bit more help to ensure that we remained able to carry out our mission at a time when we were really needed,
Misty Pratt
I feel like we should have put a trigger warning at the beginning of that to say "memories of the COVID-19 pandemic upcoming." Yes, I'm sure many people remember those times clearly, but also sometimes want to forget. But I think you know what you said about really pivoting quickly, and also the fact that now we are in an organization that can work remotely, that you know, someone like me can live in Ottawa but still connect with my colleagues and my team, and so it has led to some really positive changes too.
Michael Schull
Yeah, absolutely.
Misty Pratt
I know this is probably a hard question. You did mention something that you were proud of there during the pandemic, but is there something else that stands out to you as an accomplishment that you are most proud of over your time?
Michael Schull
There's a lot of things that I'm proud of. I think if there was one thing in particular, I would say that it's the development of our Public and Community Engagement Program at ICES, as well as the kind of strengthening and institutionalization of some of our Indigenous partnerships. So yeah, if I take the first aspect of that when I started, there really wasn't any active engagement effort to engage the public in the work of ICES. There was some there might have been at a research project level, a particular researcher might be engaging some patients and in the work, but there wasn't really any concerted efforts. And one of the things that we established in the first couple of years when I became CEO, was a Public Advisory Council, which is meant to reflect broadly Ontarians as a whole. Now very difficult for a group of 12 or 15 people to represent, you know, 14 million people, but nonetheless. The whole idea in our mind is that we have this resource, which is the data on all Ontarians. And it seemed very clear to us that we need to work with that data in ways that align broadly with the values of Ontarians. And so how do you gage the values Ontarians? Well, you have to ask them. You have to talk to them. And of course, that work is not just about the Public Advisory Council. That's a very important way that we gage those values. But we also are, again, early on, held focus groups with members of the public to describe the work of the organization and get people's response. You know, are they comfortable? Uncomfortable? What do they like? What do they not like? And so on. And then, more recently, we have also been engaging more directly with specific communities, knowing that there's not one 'public' out there. There are many 'publics' out there. There's not one homogeneous view. So, we've been engaging directly with racialized and equity deserving communities to get an understanding of their views with respect to things like the use of data that identifies race and ethnicity in our data sets and how can we ensure that we're working with that data responsibly? And interestingly, that's also led to some of the of those community groups coming forward and saying, we'd actually like you to help us answer questions about our community, which is fantastic. I think that's a great example, again, of how that outreach can lead to actual benefits for those communities. So that's something that I think has had significant impact on our organization. The other is, of course, our relationships with First Nation organizations and communities, Metis organizations and Inuit organizations in Ontario. That work started before I became CEO, for sure, but we have broadened it, deepened it, and I think, institutionalized it so that it isn't so dependent on individual relationships between people in our organization and those organizations, but rather they are covered now by data governance agreements that lay out how we will work with Indigenous identifying data. We have policies and approaches that ensure that we're supporting Indigenous data sovereignty in our work, and we've established for the first time, just a couple years ago, an Indigenous Partnerships, Data and Analytics department at ICES with dedicated staff who are supporting this work. And that's something, again, that I'm very proud about as I look back, and I know that that is going to endure. Essentially, what we're trying to do is to support those Indigenous partners in the kinds of research analytics that they need to better understand health in their communities.
Misty Pratt
When you sift through your memories of leading ICES, what memory stands out? Something that's meaningful to you? Maybe a maybe a funny story or two.
Michael Schull
Well, I'll tell you one funny story, which goes back to the very first day that I became CEO, and I remember- so I'm sitting here in my office. This is the CEO's office, same office. I think CEO has been in this office forever, since ICES was around. And on day one, when I moved in, I have these beautiful windows that I'm facing right now, looks out into a lovely ravine behind the hospital, and there's some beautiful trees. And as I looked out into the tree, I saw, this was September, and I took a double take, because there was a raccoon that clearly was dead and was hanging half out of the hole in the tree and sort of splayed out. And I just remember seeing this and thinking, "Oh, my god, is this some sort of omen of my future?" So thankfully, it wasn't an omen. Sadly, this raccoon had come to the end of his or her life, and the grounds people removed the raccoon. But it did not go on to be, to be an omen for my for my future. I'm glad to say
Misty Pratt
Yes, you'd expect to maybe see a rainbow or something.
Michael Schull
Yeah, exactly No. Not that day. A more poignant story, and one that you know, I think highlights a number of things about this organization. Is when Jack Tu, Dr. Jack Tu died, Jack was one of the early scientists here at ICES. He was a student of David Naylor. David Naylor was the founder of ICES. He was the head of our cardiovascular research program, internationally acclaimed researcher who died of a heart attack, far too young. And I will never forget getting a phone call, I was at a conference in Montreal, and I got a call to say that Jack had passed during the night. You know, just knew that immediately I had to get on a plane and come home that I needed to be here with the staff that worked closely with Jack. And you know, he was a remarkable time for many reasons. One was just how sad we all were at his death, but also how our teams came together at the time. And one of the things that was absolutely evident, we brought the cardiovascular team together. I think it might have been the next day that, you know, I took the plane back. We organized a meeting. The next day. We met in our little cafeteria upstairs. And, you know, we were all, everyone was telling stories, and shedding tears and so on. But at the end of that, we were saying, "Jack has a ton of work that's still underway, and we're not going to let this work just stop. We need to complete it." And so very quickly, the entire team got together where new scientists who had been participating these projects became the new leads on these projects. The analysts doubled down, and essentially, over the course, it took probably a good two or three years after that to complete all the work, he was so prolific, but we ensured that all the work that he had started was completed, and all of it got published with his name on it, even if it was posthumous. And I just thought that was an amazing example of the tight knit relationships in this organization, because it is the people that make this place special that is by far our greatest asset, are those people and that was a great example of them coming together, dealing with a crisis, overcoming their own emotions and their own sadness and getting the job done, and that's something I'll never forget,
Misty Pratt
And just knowing that that's probably something Jack would have wanted to see his work be completed.
Michael Schull
I think so. I absolutely think so.
Misty Pratt
As somebody who joined ICES just three years ago, I absolutely recognized from day one, that tight knit community was something that was really special that I hadn't seen in any other workplace. There's more to this story, which was shared with me by our facilities manager extraordinaire, Jin Park in his email to me, Jin writes ICES had an unfortunate moment when one of our great scientists, Jack Tu passed away on October 29 2018 to honor his memory, we decided to procure a bench and install a plaque at Sunnybrook Hospital, where ice offices are located. I thought it was a great idea for Jack's team to build the bench together. It was a very dark time for ice, but standing shoulder to shoulder with Michael and building Jack's bench was a symbolic gesture that together we can overcome any challenge that ICES faces. Michael is, and has always been, a tower of strength that guided ICES through all the good, the bad and the ugly times. The bench still stands strong today, and Jin has sent along several photos, which we'll share with all of you on our social media. In them, Michael is leading the team and very involved in ensuring that the bench was built as designed. Okay, so you are not retiring, but in fact, at the at the time this recording airs, you are now CEO of the Digital Research Alliance of Canada. So why the Alliance? And what are you most excited for in your new role?
Michael Schull
Well, the Alliance is a national organization. It's, it's a, again, a not for profit public sector organization that is supported by the federal government this time. So the Industry, Science and Economic Development Ministry is is its funder, and they exist to fund and support and develop compute capacity to support machine learning and artificial intelligence research across Canada to enable and ensure that there's appropriate research software is available in that computer environment, that the appropriate data resources are available and appropriate data management systems are in place, and they also help support training programs for students and researchers to conduct that research. It doesn't have a specific health focus, it supports broadly all research domains. And so, you know, to me, the attraction of the role was twofold, really. One is that it's a national role. So, there's an opportunity to take what I've learned here and apply it on a national stage, and also to support research that goes beyond the health sector. And in fact, historically, the Alliance has not done a lot of work in the health research space, because health data is just more challenging to work with than, say, astrophysics data or some other forms of research data. But they definitely have the ambition to work in the health space. So that also was very attractive to me. I see huge opportunities to leverage existing investments in high performance computing environments that have already been made over the last couple of decades in Canada, to build on those and also to leverage existing investments that have been made by other organizations. ICES would be an example of one of those organizations which is has its own analytic environment, has its own relatively small environment for machine learning and artificial intelligence research, and could very much benefit by meaningful collaborations and opportunities to work together with the Alliance as it further builds out the capacity, the compute capacity that it supports. We're also at a particular moment in time. You know, the notion of sovereign AI, is something that people are talking a lot about these days, and this is front and center for the Alliance, where this is part of, I think, an economic and sovereignty agenda for Canada. You know, Canada needs to build these resources for our research community, broadly, both public sector and private sector researchers, and so I think it's a really exciting opportunity to lead an organization that's going to be right in the middle of that of that effort.
Misty Pratt
So, it sounds like maybe there could be a collaboration down the road between the Alliance and ICES
Michael Schull
I think, so I see, I think so, well, you know, I've got some good connections at ICES, and so, you know.
Misty Pratt
You do
Michael Schull
I'll see what I can do.
Misty Pratt
Okay, last question, what do you see as the next or most exciting development in the world of health data and analytics?
Michael Schull
There is just more and more data available all the time, and that's both a blessing and a curse, right? We'll start with the curse part. It's just that they can just be a flood of data. Some of it is, you know, messy, and it's the old garbage in garbage out problem, right? You want to make sure that the data you're working is accurate and is actually helping you answer the questions you have. But the blessing part of it is that we're actually, you know, able to do a pretty good job of ensuring that the data that is increasingly being made available is being used to advance better understanding of health and social programs and how they're affecting outcomes for, you know, for Canadians broadly. So, you know the fact that at ICES in particular, there is work to bring in data that goes outside of health domains. So that includes social services or education or, you know, justice data and so on. The fact that we are going to increasingly be able to link that data to health data and look more holistically at how those factors influence health outcomes. Because we know it's not just about what happens to you in the health system that determines your health outcomes. You know what happens to you in terms of social services and education and so on, or race and ethnicity when talking about health equity or Indigeneity and so. All of those factors also influence health outcomes. So that ability to look at broader data, I think, is a really important trend, and then the corollary to that is the deepening of much of the data that's available. So, if you think about health data, which, traditionally at ICES, we were working with what's called administrative data, which is more just data that is routinely collected by government and the interactions that people have with the health system. Well, now we're talking about detailed health data that's collected in electronic health records and electronic medical records that includes much more nuance and much more information than has been available in the past. So being able to bring that data in, link it with the broader data that I mentioned, just creates fantastic opportunities to advance healthcare and health research in Ontario. And I think that's a that's a really exciting trend. It's not, it's not by any means limited to ICES. You know, as I say, these, these trends are happening really in many different places. So again, huge opportunities to collaborate and learn from each other and work together.
Misty Pratt
Michael, thank you so much for being here today. I know I've heard from many folks that they are very sad to see you go, but I think I speak for all of us when I say we're also excited for you and looking forward to seeing where you go and what you do. Thank you so much for being here.
Michael Schull
Thanks, Misty. You know, as I said then you alluded to at the beginning, this job as CEO at ICES has been the highlight of my career. It's been the greatest honor and privilege to date in my career, and I'm just very thankful and very grateful. And the main thing, again, I will the biggest thing I will miss, are the people. You're one of them, but our paths will cross undoubtedly, and I look forward to that.
Misty Pratt
Wonderful, thank you.
Jimmy Fang
Dear Michael. It has been over 20 years since we first met. We have shared so many great memories over that time. One of the very first project I worked on at ICES in 2001 was the Euro influenza outbreaks and ED overcrowding study. It was such a wonderful opportunity for me, as a junior analyst, to work with you. Under your supervision, I learned how to clean your data and perform data analysis properly. In 2016 we also had a chance to visit Beijing, China together. During that trip, I discovered that you could drink 65% Chinese alcohol without even feeling drunk, no red face. You truly are a strong man. You are not only an excellent scientist, but also an inspiring leader in health research. Now, as you move from your first at ICES to second at the Digital Research Alliance of Canada. I wish you continued success. I hope your next episode destination will be as a Minister of Health for Ontario or even for all of Canada. Best wishes from Jimmy. Thank you.
Misty Pratt
Thanks for joining me for this episode of In Our VoICES. Check out the show notes for links to research and any other information that we've referenced in this episode. A reminder that the opinions expressed in this podcast are not necessarily those of ICES. Please be sure to follow and rate us on your favorite podcast app. If you have feedback or questions about anything you've heard on In Our VoICES, please email us at communications@ices.on.ca and we will get back to you. All of us at ICES wish you strong data and good health.